Theodicy

Discussion in 'Open View Theology' started by Joe, Dec 10, 2016.

  1. Joe is a Verified MemberJoe Tattooed Theist
    Joe

    Administrator Site Supporter

    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Theology:
    Open Theist
    Theodicy is the defense of God's goodness, as well as omnipotence, in light of evil in the world.

    The first place I would refer anyone struggling with this issue to is the book of JOB. I've studied and preached on this text more than any other.

    • Here is the direct question I was given by a user on instagram
    "If God is omnipresent and omnipotent as well as a "God of Love" then he would've known what would happen with satan and the fall of man, as well as physical and emotional suffering of said creations. Based on this theology then he either isn't a God of love or he isn't all knowing and all present."

    This is truly my favorite question, because once you get past the small barricade that is holding you hostage you see that the answer is not that God ISN'T love. It's that God loves SO freakin' much.

    I'm a father, my daughter is 3 months old - a fresh baby. Now, I know that in her teenage years, statistically speaking, she will smoke pot, drink, have sex, have her heart broken, and be treated like a piece of meat by dumbass teenage boys. Those things more than likely will happen to her. I'm aware of it, I knew it before I had her.
    So, would it be better to not have had her? Knowing bad things will happen to her?
    Should I shelter her and never let her date, have friends, or go out?

    Certainly not, because I would also be shielding her from experiences the beauties of life, love, stress, and setbacks.

    I am an Open Theist, I do not believe everything is life is predestined and preordained by God to happen. I look at life like a "choose your own adventure book." Where God knows what is going to happen, but He doesn't force it any which way. I have the power to take the left road, down drugs and prison (which I did for 18 years) Or I have the choice to take the road on the right which leads to graduate school, marriage and children (which I now have). God knew I'd take both roads, but He didn't force me either way.

    Atheists who die atheists, God knows. He has a different road for them, but he LOVES creation so much that He gives them the greatest applicable characteristic of love - Free Will.

    Love cannot be called love without absolute free will.
    If my wife wants to leave me, I will be sad, devastated, but I love her and I want her to make her own choices in life - I want her to have complete free will in her life.

    Now, if you want a calvinist to answer this question, I would see them having a very hard time painting a picture of a loving God in this regard. :rolleyes:
     
  2. Maryannie New Member
    Maryannie

    Member

    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Why?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Joe is a Verified MemberJoe Tattooed Theist
    Joe

    Administrator Site Supporter

    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Theology:
    Open Theist
    #3 Joe is a Verified MemberJoe, Dec 10, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
    Reformed Theology says that everything is predestined and preordained.

    We don't choose God, he chooses us.
    Meaning God predestined certain people to eternal damnation, meaning God is not love.
     
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
  4. Joe is a Verified MemberJoe Tattooed Theist
    Joe

    Administrator Site Supporter

    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Theology:
    Open Theist
    @Anthony D'Arienzo what about what i said is incorrect? That's reformed theology to a T.
     
  5. Anthony D'Arienzo is a Verified MemberAnthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member
    Anthony D'Arienzo

    Member

    Messages:
    688
    Likes Received:
    124
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Predestination is only used in a positive sense in scripture.
    All mankind was considered as Fallen and dead in Adam.
    God in mercy set His love on a multitude of sinners in pure mercy.
    The term that is used in reformed theology for the rest is preterition.
    God passes by those not elected .
    They are left to their own devices and fully responsible to God.
    They love their sin and are bound by it.
    Jonah2;
    8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
    pret·er·i·tion
    /ˌpredəˈriSH(ə)n/

    noun noun: preterition, plural noun: preteritions

    • 1. the action of passing over or disregarding a matter, especially the rhetorical technique of making summary mention of something by professing to omit it.
    • 2. (in Calvinist theology) omission from God's elect; nonelection to salvation.
     
  6. Joe is a Verified MemberJoe Tattooed Theist
    Joe

    Administrator Site Supporter

    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Theology:
    Open Theist
    It doesn't matter was the "sense in scripture" it is used. There are implications of the theology - such as the fact that God willingly created people to be damned for all eternity. You have to be able to justify that.

    You said "God "passes by those not elected."

    Yes, he also created, predestined and decided that they would not be elected and that they would burn for all eternity.

    You said "They love their sin and are bound by it."

    Yes, and he also predestined and determined that they would love their sin. How does that make logical sense to you?

    How do you answer that?
     
  7. Joe is a Verified MemberJoe Tattooed Theist
    Joe

    Administrator Site Supporter

    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Theology:
    Open Theist
    It doesn't matter was the "sense in scripture" it is used. There are implications of the theology - such as the fact that God willingly created people to be damned for all eternity. You have to be able to justify that.

    You said "God "passes by those not elected."

    Yes, he also created, predestined and decided that they would not be elected and that they would burn for all eternity.

    You said "They love their sin and are bound by it."

    Yes, and he also predestined and determined that they would love their sin. How does that make logical sense to you?

    How do you answer that?
     
  8. Anthony D'Arienzo is a Verified MemberAnthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member
    Anthony D'Arienzo

    Member

    Messages:
    688
    Likes Received:
    124
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Joe,

    Gen 1:31 indicates otherwise, so does eccl.7
    29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
    ....mans rebellion brought the consequences of his sin.

    No, I just have to believe, trust and obey by God given faith that;
    25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right
    Yes...he is not obligated to do anything he has not purposed to Do eternally;
    13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

    14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

    15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

    16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.

    17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

    18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

    19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

    20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

    Yes, he also created, predestined and decided that they would not be elected and that they would burn for all eternity.

    Scripture says it, I believe it, yes; 2thess2
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    .
    God is not the author of sin...predestination in scripture is only used in a positive sense of the objects of mercy being conformed to the Image of the Son.

    God as creator owns all men by His right as Creator...
    5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

    With the scriptures alone, not with my defective ideas or philosophy.
    Jesus did this in lk.4...telling satan, it is written...
     
  9. Kutastha New Member
    Kutastha

    Member

    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Theology:
    Gaudiya Vaisnav
    Sure, but are you omnipotent?

    Well, it would've made no difference to her if you hadn't had her. But that's really beside the point, isn't it? The argument isn't "Can you find a value in life despite the suffering involved?" The argument is about why an omnipotent and loving God would allow for suffering, or why He would, at the very least, allow for as much suffering as there is.

    What is the nature of heaven?

    It is my position that there exists a platform upon which concepts like predestination and preordainment do not apply. Now, whether or not you believe that they actualize on the platform where the concepts do apply is less pertinent and, frankly, less interesting. It is less pertinent because it matters not at all. It is like pondering over whether or not we live in an elaborate simulation. Regardless, the result is functionally no different for anyone dwelling within the world.
    Similarly, even if we suppose that predestination is a fact, we don't all stop behaving as though we are making the decisions that we make. It might raise questions concerning moral culpability and responsibility, but certainly not insurmountable ones. Just as this world is functionally as good as a simulation, so too is it as good as predetermined.

    Transcending that program is, in my view, where theology comes in. In short, it is my conviction that true, divine goodness is radically free in a way that pierces beyond relative time constraints. Put another way, to act on the absolute platform is to surprise God with love. Evil, on the other hand, is to be a slave to the program. It is to serve the lower nature; to serve mammon, as the saying goes.

    That's new to me. I was under the impression that Open Theists believe that the future is some sort of unwritten potentiality that not even God knows.

    Unless the term "Open Theist" has changed over the years, I'm pretty sure the view you're espousing here is very common among Christians in general, save for those subscribing to Reform Theology.

    I'm on the track with you. The only difference is that I would say that free will IS love. That is to say, when one is acting in a genuinely free capacity, he or she is acting out of love.

    Yes! More so than you know.

    I believe that if both of you love each other through Christ and Christ through each other, then absolute freedom is what you will embody. I hope you two are growing in that realization, and I'm sure you're excited to help guide your daughter toward it at her own pace.

    I see that a gentleman in this thread has spoken to this. I plan to consider his points and address them in a future post.
     
  10. Thomas Bagels is a Verified MemberThomas Bagels Administrator
    Thomas Bagels

    Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Theology:
    Latin Catholic
    Why do you think that's more than likely to happen to your daughter?

    I am a teenager and have never smoked pot, drank, or had sex. It's not more than likely to do those things.
     

Share This Page