Justification (Catholic Theology)

Discussion in 'Catholic Theology' started by Joe, Oct 14, 2017.

  1. TheWordSmith is a Verified MemberTheWordSmith Well-Known Member
    TheWordSmith

    Member

    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    79
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Theology:
    Bible Believer
    #49 TheWordSmith is a Verified MemberTheWordSmith, Nov 22, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017

    I thought my question was clear. I will try to break it down and simplify it for you.

    Is an infant who is baptized as an infant justified throughout their adult life as a result of that infant baptism without further action on their part?

    I am not making any presumptions in my question; I am asking what your presumptions are?



    I am not looking for a different answer; I am just looking for an answer. Apparently this is too complicated of a question.


    From:
    [​IMG]

    http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/how-catholicism-contributed-to-the-king-james-bible


    "How Catholicism Contributed to the King James Bible

    New Vatican exhibit explains the Church connection to the 400-year-old book of Scripture.

    EWTN NEWS

    A new interfaith exhibition that opens this week at the Vatican reveals how the roots of the 1611 King James Bible are almost entirely Catholic, despite the fact that the translation was often viewed as a highpoint of Protestant European culture.

    “If it had not been for the Catholics of the 1500s, there would be no King James Bible,” exhibition organizer Cary Summers told EWTN News.

    “Many of the original Bibles that formed the basis of the King James Bible came from Catholic priests. Very few changes were made. The ancient writings that the King James writers actually mimicked and copied were by Catholic priests,” he explained."
     
  2. TheWordSmith is a Verified MemberTheWordSmith Well-Known Member
    TheWordSmith

    Member

    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    79
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Theology:
    Bible Believer
    #50 TheWordSmith is a Verified MemberTheWordSmith, Nov 22, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
    Again, you are correct the passage does not say “scripture alone” nor does it say scripture plus whatever one chooses to use in addition.



    I would argue “Sola scriptura” is nullified by your tradition.

    Mark 7:13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

    Jesus believed in “Sola scriptura”.

    Matthew 4:4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

    I do understand where you are coming from, if we have to stick to scripture only many of your “man made traditions “ fall into the dust without support.


    You can’t justify additions to scripture with scripture, so anyone who falls for this error just has to believe your word or the words of a man who thinks he is infallible.
     
  3. TheWordSmith is a Verified MemberTheWordSmith Well-Known Member
    TheWordSmith

    Member

    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    79
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Theology:
    Bible Believer
    The one where you believe the men that told you you could use something other than scripture to determine your doctrine.
     
  4. Mungo is a Verified MemberMungo Well-Known Member
    Mungo

    Site Supporter Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Theology:
    Catholic
    As opposed to your man made tradition that the Bible alone can be used - even through Bible does not claim that!
     
  5. Mungo is a Verified MemberMungo Well-Known Member
    Mungo

    Site Supporter Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Theology:
    Catholic

    And I have never claimed that it's scripture plus whatever one chooses to use in addition. That's your distortion of Catholic teaching.



    Sola Scriptura is a false man-made tradition handed down by the "Reformers".


    No. Jesus didn't believe in Sola Scriptura. And your quote does not say that man lives ONLY on the WRITTEN word of God.




    If you stick to scripture only then you are following a man-made tradition not sanctioned by scripture.


    You can't justify the man-made tradition of Sola Scriptura, so anyone who falls that that unbibilical teaching is following man not God[
     
  6. Mungo is a Verified MemberMungo Well-Known Member
    Mungo

    Site Supporter Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Theology:
    Catholic
    Let me show you why it was not clear

    1. In the quote above what do you mean by

    "believe on Christ"


    I ask because believe ON Christ is a strange phrase to me. I looked it up and found there are differing opinions on the difference between 'believe IN Christ' and 'believe ON Christ'.

    In the web site I found there were 9 different opinions. Here is one:
    The answer is really quite simple. If you believe IN God, for example, you believe in what He claims, what He stands for, His precepts and demands, and you agree with them, buy into them, and take them on for yourself.
    His views become your world-view.
    If you believe ON Him, you believe that He exists, but you do not agree with his claims, or demands, and you do not buy into them. You do not declare yourself to be on His side.
    The Bibles says: “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.” (James 2: 9). That verse succinctly demonstrates the difference between the two.
    So, the demons believe on God, but refuse to give Him deference, obedience, or their allegiance
    That is the difference.

    (https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-believe-in-you-and-believe-on-you?share=1)

    I doubt if you mean that the belief required was as little as demons have. But perhaps you do.
    But hence your question was ambiguous.

    2. In the above quote what do you mean by

    "to be saved".
    We are discussing baptism and initial justification. So is "to be saved" referring to what they must do to be saved initially or are you referring to some future salvation?
    Again your question was ambiguous.

    3. In the above quote what do you mean by "live for Christ".
    I've done a Bible search and I cannot find that phrase.

    4. In the above quote what do you mean by "seals their eternal soul".
    Again a Bible search yields no answer.

    Your (modern) Protestant mindset is antithetical to the Catholic understanding of faith, Church, sacraments and baptism. IMO, your questions incorporate a "belief alone" understanding of Justification, and an "obedience only" understanding of baptism. There also seems to be a hint of Once Saved Always Saved.

     
  7. Mungo is a Verified MemberMungo Well-Known Member
    Mungo

    Site Supporter Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Theology:
    Catholic
    I looked at your second attempt to ask a clear question


    As I have already explained your original questions was unanswerable in the form presented. However I can answer the part I have emboldened.

    Baptism does for an infant what it does for an adult:
    1. forgiveness of sins (original sin and personal sin).
    2. rebirth (regeneration/ renewal) as children of God and the infusion of sanctifying grace.
    3. incorporation into the body of Christ, the Church, the New Covenant.
    4. sealing with an indelible spiritual mark of belonging to Christ.

    You continue

    Baptism does not provide that for an adult, so no - it does not provide that for an infant

    More is required for both adults and children.


    From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

    Faith and Baptism

    1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith. But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. the faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. the catechumen or the godparent is asked: "What do you ask of God's Church?" the response is: "Faith!"


    1254 For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. For this reason the Church celebrates each year at the Easter Vigil the renewal of baptismal promises. Preparation for Baptism leads only to the threshold of new life. Baptism is the source of that new life in Christ from which the entire Christian life springs forth.





    I've no idea what you mean by the part I have emboldened. But regarding children the Catechism continues:

    1255 For the grace of Baptism to unfold, the parents' help is important. So too is the role of the godfather and godmother, who must be firm believers, able and ready to help the newly baptized - child or adult on the road of Christian life. Their task is a truly ecclesial function (officium). The whole ecclesial community bears some responsibility for the development and safeguarding of the grace given at Baptism.



     
  8. TheWordSmith is a Verified MemberTheWordSmith Well-Known Member
    TheWordSmith

    Member

    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    79
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Theology:
    Bible Believer

    Simple. Many believe they are saved because they were baptized as a child or dedicated in a church service. In believing that error many feel there is nothing left to do to be saved. They do not understand salvation is a personal decision, not one someone made for you as a child. The same type problem occurs in protestant churches as well by having faith in the church dogma or baptismal certificate rather than actually coming to Christ themselves.
     
  9. Mungo is a Verified MemberMungo Well-Known Member
    Mungo

    Site Supporter Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Theology:
    Catholic
    As you can see from my answers, the Catholic Church (and Orthodox, Lutherans, CofE & Episcopalians etc) teaches that all who are baptised are justified (saved) in their baptism. However they (or most) do not teach the false doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved.
     
  10. Mungo is a Verified MemberMungo Well-Known Member
    Mungo

    Site Supporter Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Theology:
    Catholic
    Modern Protestants have privatised Christianity. It’s ego-centric not Christo-centric. Their version of Christianity is all about my personal relationship with Christ and my personal interpretation of scripture. Salvation is just something personal not something we strive for in conjunction with others.

    On the contrary Catholicism and Orthodoxy is about being part of a community of believers. An Orthodox priest put it very well regarding salvation:

    The Church is what salvation looks like because salvation is not a momentary matter, but a life-long event. It may be initiated by our acceptance of Christ, just as a battle against cancer may be initiated by a diagnosis and first dose of chemo. But the sin which affects us is not a mere legal problem – it is existential, ontological – it is deep in the core of us – and only a lifetime in Christ, bathed continually in grace, will we find a beginning to the healing of its destruction and prepare us for the life God is giving us......

    It is here that we are Baptized into the very life of Christ, into His body. It is here that we are fed on His Body and Blood. Here in the Church we are restored to communion with God and communion with others. And it is here that the battleground to maintain that communion takes place. Thus God has given us the means to correct one another, to heal one another, to aid in the salvation, the complete restoration of each other in Christ.

    Anyone who does not know that the Church is what salvation looks like has not begun to work out his salvation with fear and trembling.


    https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2007/10/08/getting-saved-in-the-church/

    In the Summa Theologica, one of the questions that St. Thomas Aquinas addresses is "Whether children should be baptized?" (Summa, III, 68:9). His standard method is to give possible objections and then answer those objections. Hence:

    Objection 2. Further, Baptism is the sacrament of faith, as stated above (III:39:5; III:66:1 ad 1). But children have not faith, which demands an act of the will on the part of the believer, as Augustine says (Super Joan. xxvi). Nor can it be said that their salvation is implied in the faith of their parents; since the latter are sometimes unbelievers, and their unbelief would conduce rather to the damnation of their children. Therefore it seems that children cannot be baptized.

    Reply to Objection 2. As Augustine says, writing to Boniface (Cont. duas Ep. Pelag. i), "in the Church of our Saviour little children believe through others, just as they contracted from others those sins which are remitted in Baptism." Nor is it a hindrance to their salvation if their parents be unbelievers, because, as Augustine says, writing to the same Boniface (Ep. xcviii), "little children are offered that they may receive grace in their souls, not so much from the hands of those that carry them (yet from these too, if they be good and faithful) as from the whole company of the saints and the faithful. For they are rightly considered to be offered by those who are pleased at their being offered, and by whose charity they are united in communion with the Holy Ghost."....... But the faith of one, indeed of the whole Church, profits the child through the operation of the Holy Ghost, Who unites the Church together, and communicates the goods of one member to another.
     
  11. TheWordSmith is a Verified MemberTheWordSmith Well-Known Member
    TheWordSmith

    Member

    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    79
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Theology:
    Bible Believer
    You have made an error labeling me with once saved always saved.
     
  12. Mungo is a Verified MemberMungo Well-Known Member
    Mungo

    Site Supporter Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Theology:
    Catholic
    I didn't say you did believe that.
     
  13. TheWordSmith is a Verified MemberTheWordSmith Well-Known Member
    TheWordSmith

    Member

    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    79
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Theology:
    Bible Believer
    #61 TheWordSmith is a Verified MemberTheWordSmith, Nov 23, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017

    Your above comments appear contradictory to me. Your 4 points describe what I believe the Bible teaches as salvation yet you say more is required. That is where we disagree.
     
  14. TheWordSmith is a Verified MemberTheWordSmith Well-Known Member
    TheWordSmith

    Member

    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    79
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Theology:
    Bible Believer
    Well you came very close.
     
  15. Mungo is a Verified MemberMungo Well-Known Member
    Mungo

    Site Supporter Member

    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Theology:
    Catholic

    The 4 points refer to our initial Justification. It is but our first step in the Christian life.

    Jesus said:
    "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” (Mt 7:13-14).

    What is the hard way that leads to life?

    It is the way that Jesus (who is the Way) trod.

    It involves:
    suffering (Acts 14:22, Rom 8:18)
    maintaining faith (Acts 14:22, Heb 10:38, 1Pet1:6-9)
    obedience (Mt 7:21, 12:50)
    patience and perseverance (Jas 5:7-12,
    helping the poor (Jas 2:14-17)
    loving even enemies (Lk 6:27)
    repenting of sins (Rev 2:5)
    self denial (Mt 16:24)
    and more

    This is the path to holiness. Christ has trodden it before us. We do not tread it alone because Christ is with us. But tread it we must if we wish to enter life.
     

Share This Page