How can God desire all to be saved yet make only few to be saved?

Discussion in 'Reformed Theology' started by Kendal, Jan 15, 2017.

  1. Joe is a Verified MemberJoe Administrator
    Joe

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    See attached image.

    The "I" in tulip is pretty clear to me.
    God chooses, humans have no say in the matter because He predestined it.

    If a man chooses to have sex with a woman, but she has no say in the matter because the man already decided - that would be considered forced sex.

    Why is salvation not forced within a reformed view? I see your point in that due to the renewing of their heart they want it, but if you keep backtracking the events that cause salvation you still wind up at God moving someone regardless of their will to choose.

    To be clear, I'm truly curious - not poking the bear - because I attend a reformed church, they are my home church, but they have only spoken about Total Depravity (which is the only ideology of Calvinism which I've always agreed with.)

    Screen Shot 2017-01-23 at 10.40.30 AM.png
     
  2. Anthony D'Arienzo is a Verified MemberAnthony D'Arienzo Moderator
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    I am not so good at illustrations but this one has a biblical basis.
    If a person is blind because his optic nerve is disconnected.....then God heals the connection.....he now can see.....he is not forced to see....but he is quite
    Willing and now able to see what was always there to begin with......he being healed would not complain or protest saying he was forced would he?
    I have not met a reluctant Believer yet:kissing_heart:
     
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  3. SovereignGrace Member
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    You who were once dead in transgressions and sins...He has made alive...

    The spiritually dead are just that...dead...dead as in a dead spiritual corpse. Throw a life line to it and it can not take hold of it.

    That is why God must first do Spiritual CPR. Now, after He has quickened...made alive...that which was once dead, they can respond. Read Ezekiel 11:19 & Ezekiel 36:26.
     
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  4. Joe is a Verified MemberJoe Administrator
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    I see your point but I'd still argue it was forced. What if the hypothetical individual did not want their vision corrected?
    What about John 3:19 ? Doesn't scripture say in several places that sinners love or delight in their sin? If so God would be quite possibly forcing them from the sin they love to Him (which is obviously much better, but you get my point.)


    Ezekiel 36:26 has been one of my favorite verses since I came to Christ, but it can be applied from other theological views as well.

    Could God not begin a stirring in the heart of a sinner, and allow him/her to surrender their life to Him?
     
  5. SovereignGrace Member
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    Unless God first gives them Spiritual life, they can not and will not surrender anything to Him. The unregenerate hate Him.

    Those who love Him have already been born of Him.[1 John 4:7]
     
  6. Joe is a Verified MemberJoe Administrator
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    Hm, I can't say I "loved" God when I initially came to Christ. It was a long, drawn out journey for me. Several years of studying history and scripture and seeing if there was true validity to the Christian worldview. It began with a movement of my heart, a split second understanding that I had been living very wrong, but I'd say I didn't become "saved" or surrendered for another several years after I came to a more logical conclusion that the movement I had felt was God rather than an emotional reaction to a hard time in my life.
     
  7. SovereignGrace Member
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    Well, Romans 8 says men in the flesh...without the Spirit...lost...can not please God. They are at enmity with God. That means they do not love Him in their unregenerate state.
     
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  8. Joe is a Verified MemberJoe Administrator
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    Interesting, I have Romans 8:8 tattooed on my hand. This is exactly what I find peculiar though, that although I was an "enemy of God," I was diligently studying and seeking the possibility of His existence and truth.
    Why would someone spend so much time and energy, change their sinful behavior to a degree, and seek for someone who considers them an enemy?

    You've really got me thinking now, I sincerely appreciate your presence and addition to the conversations.
     
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  9. SovereignGrace Member
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    Not everyone God draws are saved at the same time. Some are saved immediately, others, God works through the word and saves them. But all along, it is His working within them, drawing them to Christ. This is effectual calling, another term for irresistible grace.
     
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  10. Anthony D'Arienzo is a Verified MemberAnthony D'Arienzo Moderator
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    I was reading the Bible in complete rebellion to God....I wanted to find the mistakes in the Bible but it was I who was mistaken.
     
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  11. Internet Theologian is a Verified MemberInternet Theologian Member
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    God makes man willing in the day of His power; Psalm 110:3.

    Have you noted that He makes His sheep to lie down in green pastures? Psalm 23. Perhaps we're not as autonomous, intellectual or know our own needs as we think since this is the case.

    He also causes us to walk in His ways; Ezekiel 36:27 ff. That's a good thing and all of grace, and I've yet to meet one sheep reluctant of what He has caused in them, as they are ashamed of their former walk; Romans 6:21.

    Note the context of Matthew 11:25-30. It is God Sovereign in His revealing, drawing, causing those to feel their burden and long for Christ, and come to Him and are saved. It is all God, He makes His willing, which is something they cannot do, as none can come to Him; John 6:44.

    If a person needs to have 'say in the matter' it would only mean that the person is still in the flesh, and lost, as the only thing the lost say is no to God, being at enmity with Him; Ephesians 2:3. And one last offering, we only believe by the power of God that raised Christ from the dead, Ephesians 1:19.

    Furthermore, since you claim to believe in total depravity, how is it you have an exalted view of man, able, having free will to come to God and hold to a god who is limited in knowledge? Bro, you rarely ever offer Scripture. Seems you trust more in your ability to exercise an argument then in revealed truth as you offer that up always and are barren of Scriptural arguments. Just an observation, this is Theology Forum, btw.
     
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  12. Joe is a Verified MemberJoe Administrator
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    I believe our human nature is fallen, obviously, I also recognize the fact that I've seen a crack head murderer offer someone a gift who was in need during my penitentiary days - meaning our nature is broke, but our choices are open.

    I refrain from direct quotes for times sake, I paraphrase often.
    But again to adhere to your neediness, I will submit.

    Jeremiah 3:19–20
    19 “I myself said,

    “ ‘How gladly would I treat you like my children

    and give you a pleasant land,

    the most beautiful inheritance of any nation.’

    I thought you would call me ‘Father’

    and not turn away from following me.

    20 But like a woman unfaithful to her husband,

    so you, …



    Why is God surprised in this story? If the future were set in stone, why did turning of events surprise the Lord?

    Genesis 6:5–6 (NIV)
    5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.



    Why does God display Regret and Disappointment? If God predestines everything to happen, has the future laid out exhaustively, Regret and Disappointment are not logical emotional reactions. If "His will be done" in all things, His reaction to wickedness is unintelligible.

    We can start there, and move forward if you wish.
     
  13. Him New Member
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    All men are unable to repent but it was not God who made them as such. It was Adam who made all men unable to repent at the fall.

    God did not make it impossible for some to repent, Adam did that for all of us.

    Jesus' Atonement rendered all men savable but the cross is not the only instrumentation in salvation. Faith is required and granted by divine enabling of a chosen portion from the mass of humanity that God decided to save.

    Just because God saved us and didn't save all doesnot make God unjust in any way shape or form. God preplanned the salvation of everyone who is going to be saved. Those who will not be saved were simply passed over. From a created being's perspective based in human emotions those whom God passed over are unwanted but we do not know good and evil as God knows it nor did Satan's lie produce an ability to understand good and evil as God does, we do not know it and the questions concerning what is or is not fair in the election by God is foolish and can not be understood from our vantage point.

    We must allow the scriptures to say what it says whether it makes sense to us or not. It doesn't matter what our feelings are but what matters is what is written. IMO.
     
  14. Deadmanwalking New Member
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    Pardon me if I'm repeating what's been said, but my understanding is that the pronoun "all" is not always literal. In that time, salvation was considered to only be for the Jews. So when it started being said that God wants ALL to be saved, it wasn't literally meaning that every single human should be saved. This would contradict a few scriptures off the top of my head. Some vessels for mercy. Some for wrath. Pharaoh. If God wanted ALL to be saved, why not save Pharaoh too? But instead He hardened Pharaoh's heart.

    So again, "all" doesn't necessarily mean ALL. It means people from ALL over the world, not just Jews.
     
  15. Anthony D'Arienzo is a Verified MemberAnthony D'Arienzo Moderator
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    Welcome DMW,
    You are quite correct....the all refers to all manner of men, old young, rich poor, jew ,gentile.
    Originally God singled out one nation...Israel where salvation would be found, but now it has gone worldwide...jew or gentile, one new man In Christ.
     
  16. Anthony D'Arienzo is a Verified MemberAnthony D'Arienzo Moderator
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    God has no need to change or go to plan B. He has the prophets speak to us in language we can readily understand.
     

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