Do we have authority from scripture to name anyone other than Christ priest?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by TheWordSmith, Oct 10, 2017.

  1. Mungo is a Verified MemberMungo Well-Known Member
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    #33 Mungo is a Verified MemberMungo, Oct 11, 2017 at 6:48 PM
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2017 at 7:06 PM
    You asked:
    Are bishops and priests different positions in the Catholic Church?

    I answered it.


    The issue of paedophilia is nothing to do with the proving or disproving from scripture of the celibate priesthood.

    It is a diversion into Catholic bashing.

    Claiming priests are pressured into celibacy is Catholic bashing.

    In both cases you make claims against the Catholic Church with no evidence - despicable Catholic bashing.

     
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  2. Joe is a Verified MemberJoe Tattooed Theist
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    This has been my motto on all theology type forums I'm a member:joy:
     
  3. Thomas Bagels is a Verified MemberThomas Bagels Administrator
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    Don't worry, you are safe. Keep being respectful and you have nothing to worry about.

    Let's stay on topic now, guys.
     
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  4. Mungo is a Verified MemberMungo Well-Known Member
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    OK, going back to the topic: Do we have authority from scripture to name anyone other than Christ priest?

    I think we are agreed that there is the priesthood of all believers (1Pet 2:5.9)
    Yes/no?

    The issue seems to be - is there another groups of Christians than can rightly be called priests?
    Yes/no ?
     
  5. TheWordSmith is a Verified MemberTheWordSmith Well-Known Member
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    Yes, it is all believers per the scripture you posted and Revelation 1:6



    No. not scripturally. If I’ve missed something please post it.
     
  6. Mungo is a Verified MemberMungo Well-Known Member
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    I didn't ask you if there were such priests or not.

    I want to know if that is the issue we need discuss. If so I will tackle it (probably tomorrow).
     
  7. Illuminator is a Verified MemberIlluminator Moderator
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    Do we have authority from scripture to name anyone other than Christ priest?

    What is a "pastor?" The word is from the Latin, in fact, and it means - quite simply - "shepherd." If you call yourself a pastor, you are claiming to be a shepherd of God's flock.

    The term "pastor" is also interwoven with the biblical term "overseer," or "elder" - in the Greek, episkopos, or "bishop." We see this in St. Paul's farewell discourse to the elders of Ephesus:
    "Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son." (Acts 20:28)
    There is the connection: the "episkopoi" of the church at Ephesus have guardianship over "the flock" of God's people.

    Further, to be a "pastor" (shepherd, overseer, elder) is also to be an "ambassador" for Christ (c.f. 2 Cor. 5:18ff).

    This is no light responsibility, and Scripture tells us that this position is never self-appointed. That is, no man can merely take it upon himself, of his own initiative, to start shepherding God's flock:
    "And one does not take the honor upon himself, but he is called by God, just as Aaron was." (Heb. 5:4)

    Now, the astute reader will note that the above passage is referring specifically to the office of High Priest. Some may object that it only this highest of offices that cannot be self-appointed. But this is false, since this passage speaks of pastors as well as the High Priest. Am I reading too much into this passage? No, for we see that, just as a "pastor" is a shepherd of God's flock, so the priests and High Priest are also shepherds of God's flock:

    "The word of the LORD came to me: 'Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say to them, even to the shepherds, Thus says the Lord GOD: Ho, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding yourselves! Should not shepherds feed the sheep?'" (Ezek. 34:1-2)

    Here Ezekiel rebukes the priests of Israel, and explicitly calls them "shepherds."

    Thus, when Heb. 5:4 addresses the office of High Priest, it is the office of High Shepherd, High Pastoribus. Clearly, the restriction of Heb. 5:4 applies to all "shepherds," all "priests," all "pastors": the office, because of its solemn duties and grave responsibilities (James 3:1), cannot be taken upon oneself, but rather, one must be called to this office by God.

    The same, of course, goes for "ambassadors." The dictionary defines the word to mean, an "authorized messenger or representative" - thus, an ambassador must be sent. In fact, the word "apostle" is Greek for "sent one." To this we can add the words of St. Paul, who says that preachers must be "sent." (Rom. 10:15)

    Now, what does "to be sent" mean, except that someone in authority over you has conferred the privilege and authority upon you? In fact, it goes without saying that the one who confers the authority must be superior in authority to the one being commissioned, since no one can confer that which he does not possess himself.

    In other words, a congregation's vote cannot suffice, Scripturally speaking, to appoint a man as "pastor," since the congregation (of inferior authority) cannot confer superior authority upon a man.

    What is the Scriptural pattern for such things? This we can ascertain by observing the mission of Our Lord, Jesus Christ. It is a pattern of Divine Succession:

    God the Father (the superior authority) sends Jesus Christ "...these very works which I am doing, bear me witness that the Father has sent me." (John 5:36)

    Jesus, in turn, sends the Apostles "...As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." (John 20:21)

    Jesus sends these Apostles "as the Father has sent me," that is, in the same manner, with the same authority: "all authority."

    "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." (Matt. 28:18)

    read more here
     
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  8. Anthony D'Arienzo is a Verified MemberAnthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member
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    Bible Dictionaries
    Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words
    Priesthood, Priest's Office
    Resource Toolbox
    A — 1: ἱεράτευμα [​IMG]
    (Strong's #2406 — Noun Neuter — hierateuma — hee-er-at'-yoo-mah )
    denotes "a priesthood" (akin to hierateuo, see below), "a body of priests," consisting of all believers, the whole church (not a special order from among them), called "a holy priesthood," 1 Peter 2:5 ; "a royal priesthood," 1 Peter 2:9 ; the former term is associated with offering spiritual sacrifices, the latter with the royal dignity of showing forth the Lord's excellencies (RV). In the Sept.,Exodus 19:6 ; 23:22 .
     
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  9. Joe is a Verified MemberJoe Tattooed Theist
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    Amen to this.
     
  10. TheWordSmith is a Verified MemberTheWordSmith Well-Known Member
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    Since most of this post is copied directly word for word from the article link you provided, “A Challenge to Protestant Pastors, By Jacob Michael” I will not respond to any points made here. Jacob Michael is not here to debate this issue. If you are Jacob Michael I apologize that was not made clear. If not I suggest you give credit to those whose work you copy so the readers will know what they are responding to.


    If you would like to restate any points in your own words I will gladly address those.
     
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  11. Thomas Bagels is a Verified MemberThomas Bagels Administrator
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    He gave credit, and linked it even before you said this. The points are just as valid, regardless of who said it.

    Please, let's keep this conversation moving forward.

    If there is even one more post with the slightest scent of anger, this thread is gone. (Which is sad because this is an important subject.)

    BE RESPECTFUL.
     
  12. Joe is a Verified MemberJoe Tattooed Theist
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    I tend to side with you on the fact that I prefer when people convey their own opinions and speech on theological topics. It's easy to copy and paste something, even if we don't understand something at all we can post on it, even if we don't actually research the topic.

    I tend to skip right past long posts that come from articles, but that's just me.. hah.

    I like to hear people's own take on things. That's kind of the point of the forum, but backing up a point with a citation I think is fine.


    Just my opinion, I suppose it's a matter of personal preference.
     
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  13. Mungo is a Verified MemberMungo Well-Known Member
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    My personal take is that if a person is prepared to defend exactly what is written then I see no problem with copy and pasting an extract. If it says what you want to say accurately and succinctly why try and shuffle it around a bit. What I dislike is someone just posting a link to a long article and saying read all that.
     
  14. Mungo is a Verified MemberMungo Well-Known Member
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    Illuminator has described how in the Old Testament there were three ranks of priesthood. I think it is worth repeating below

    The claim is that this was carried over into the New Testament and there is still a threefold model of priesthood. Two of these are very clear- the high priesthood of Jesus and the common priesthood of all Christians.

    So what about the third, a ministerial priesthood? It's true there is no one unambiguous statement that there is. But I maintain there is sufficient evidence to support that belief.

    1. Much in the Old Testament pre-figures the New. Therefore it reasonable to suggest the threefold priesthood on the OT pre-figures a threefold ministry on the NT.

    2. Hebrews 8:5 says that the priests and sanctuary of the Old Covenant were a "copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary." And indeed in Revelation describes many of the things we see in the OT worship - high priest, vestments, altar, tabernacle, candles, incense, sacrificial victim (the lamb that was slain).

    We also see a group called presbyteroi (presbyters) who offer incense before the throne (Rev 5:8). Offering incense is a priestly function (see point 3) just as in the OT.

    So in heaven we see a high priest, presbyters (priests) and a universal priesthood (Rev 5:9-10), just as in the OT.

    3. It would be consistent with scripture therefore to find a third group, in the NT. But is there one?
    We do find presbyters in the NT and if scripture is consistent then we would expect them to be priests also.

    Jude wrote to Christians to warn them that there were some among them "who pervert the grace of our God" vs 4, and warns that these men will "perish in Korah's rebellion." (vs 11).

    What was Korah's rebellion? You can read about it in Number 16 but basically they were rebelling against Moses and there being a priesthood separate from the priesthood of all Israel. They wanted to burn incense before the Lord as well as the priests. They said to Moses and Aaron: "You have gone too far! For all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them; why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord?" (Vs 3).
    Moses asked them "would you seek the priesthood also?" (vs 10)
    Moses challenged them to appear before the God with their incense and see if God accepted them. God did not and the ground swallowed up all the rebels.

    It would appear that in Jude's time there were people who took the same view - that there was no separate priesthood, only the common priesthood of all believers. But clearly Jude is saying there is a separate priesthood (who burnt incense just as the presbyteroi in Rev 5:8). How could Jude say they would perish in Korah's rebellion if a separate ministerial priesthood did not exist?
     
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  15. Anthony D'Arienzo is a Verified MemberAnthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member
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    This is From Loraine Boettner on Roman Catholisim;
    In accordance with this New Testament change in the priesthood, through which the old order of ritual and sacrifice which prefigured the atoning work of Christ has been fulfilled and Christ alone has become our true High Priest, the human priesthood as a distinct and separate order of men has fulfilled its function and has been abolished.

    Furthermore, all born-again believers, having now been given the right of access to God through Christ their Savior, and being able to go directly to God in prayer and so to intercede for themselves and others, themselves become priests of God. For these are the functions of a priest. This we term the universal priesthood of believers.

    And this is the distinctive feature of Protestantism as regards the doctrine of the priesthood. “Ye also,” says Peter, “as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. ... Ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession” (1 Peter 2:5,9). In making that statement Peter was not addressing a priestly caste, but all true believers, as is shown by the fact that his epistle was addressed to Jewish Christians who were scattered throughout the various nations, “sojourners of the Dispersion” (1:1), even to those who are as “newborn babes” in the faith (2:2). And in Revelation 1:5-6, John, writing to the seven churches in Asia Minor, says: “Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood: and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father.” The sacrifices offered by the Christian in the exercise of this priesthood are, of course, not for sin, as professedly are those of the Roman Catholic mass.

    Christ offered the true and only sacrifice for sin, once for all. His sacrifice was perfect.


    When He had completed His work of redemption upon the cross and was ready to give up His spirit He said, “It is finished” (John 19:30). With His sacrifice God was fully satisfied. It therefore does not need to be repeated, nor supplemented, nor modified in any way.
     
  16. Illuminator is a Verified MemberIlluminator Moderator
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    What some do is combine the ministerial priesthood with the universal priesthood, then they claim there is no ministerial priesthood. This is contrary to scripture and 2000 years of Christian history.
     
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  17. Anthony D'Arienzo is a Verified MemberAnthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member
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    #48 Anthony D'Arienzo is a Verified MemberAnthony D'Arienzo, Oct 12, 2017 at 8:22 PM
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017 at 8:28 PM
    pt2
    Every believer now has the inexpressibly high privilege of going directly to God in prayer, without the mediation of any earthly priest, and of interceding for himself and for others.

    The believer, of course, approaches God not in his own merits but only through the merits of Christ who has made a perfect sacrifice for him. It is precisely at this point that the Roman Catholic fails to see God’s true way of salvation, for he thinks that man still must approach God as in Old Testament times through a priest, or now perhaps through Mary or some saint whose merits can work for him.

    Christians have, by virtue of their union with Christ, free access to God at all times. This right is one of the finest things in the Christian faith, and it is a present possession.

    Yet Rome would rob us of this privilege and would interpose her priests and dead saints between the soul and God. Rome’s teaching and practice is heresy, for in many places the Bible invites us to come to God through Christ, without any reference to priests or other intercessors.


    The Bible teaches that “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ” (1 Timothy 2:5).

    The Church of Rome teaches that there are many mediators—the priests, Mary, a host of saints, and the angels—and that it is right and proper to pray to them.



    But to any honest priest in the Church of Rome it must become more and more apparent that Christ is the only true Priest, the only true Mediator, and that in serving as a priest,
    in pretending to offer the sacrifice of the mass and to forgive sins, he is merely acting the part of an impostor.
     
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